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AvantGarde
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PostSubject: Martial Arts   Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:10 pm

Dedicated to the art of fighting from around the world.

I've been interested in learning about/practicing some martial arts, particularly Shaolin Kung Fu. Very hard to do, but is rewarding nonetheless.



The video above is the first of the Shaolin training videos, for those wanting to learn.

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BardoXV



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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:30 pm

You must first decide what is your purpose or objective in learning a martial arts, if it is self defense, a .44 magnum revolver or a 12 Ga. double barrel might be more effective. If you are interested in learning a Zen art, almost anything will do, what is your interest? Zen enlightenment can be achieved through almost any activity, follow your Bliss. As far as self defense, just because a movement is difficult or exotic looking, does not make it effective. Often a straight punch to the gut will put an opponent on the ground and eliminate the danger. A crow bar to the back of the head is very effective, but leads to complications.
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Erik

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:13 am

Good idea for a thread, WanderingLands.

Martial arts can be very spiritual; they are not mere activities for brutes. Your mind and body become disciplined, more refined, when you dedicate yourself seriously to a form of combat.


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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:07 am

Unfortunately the "activity for a brute" is what gets the most notice, after many years of working out I had met only a few who were even aware that there were deeper levels to the study of Martial Arts. One Sensei left because there were so few who were interested in more than just learning how to be the toughest guy on the block. Here is a book that might be useful,

http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Martial-Arts-Joe-Hyams-ebook/dp/B003IS764O
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AvantGarde
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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:14 am

BardoXV wrote:
You must first decide what is your purpose or objective in learning a martial arts,  if it is self defense, a .44 magnum revolver or a 12 Ga. double barrel might be more effective.   If you are interested in learning a Zen art, almost anything will do, what is your interest?   Zen enlightenment can be achieved through almost any activity, follow your Bliss.   As far as self defense, just because a movement is difficult or exotic looking, does not make it effective.   Often a straight punch to the gut will put an opponent on the ground and eliminate the danger.   A crow bar to the back of the head is very effective, but leads to complications.  

My purpose is for discipline and keeping active, and also part of learning the spiritual metaphysic that goes into it (so technically it would be some sort of 'Enlightenment'). As far as self defense goes, I'm sure that some moves will be useful for combat against another, but that's not my first priority.

_________________
The Seven Principles of Hermeticism (from the Kybalion):

1. All is Mind
2. As Above, So Below
3. Everything vibrates
4. Everything is in polarity
5. All things are in motion
6. For every cause, there is an effect
7. All is gender (Male & Female)
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AvantGarde
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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:16 am

BardoXV wrote:
Unfortunately the "activity for a brute" is what gets the most notice, after many years of working out I had met only a few who were even aware that there were deeper levels to the study of Martial Arts.   One Sensei left because there were so few who were interested in more than just learning how to be the toughest guy on the block.     Here is a book that might be useful,

http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Martial-Arts-Joe-Hyams-ebook/dp/B003IS764O

Book seems interesting - I'll look at it probably in the future. Thanks.

_________________
The Seven Principles of Hermeticism (from the Kybalion):

1. All is Mind
2. As Above, So Below
3. Everything vibrates
4. Everything is in polarity
5. All things are in motion
6. For every cause, there is an effect
7. All is gender (Male & Female)
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AvantGarde
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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:27 am

Erik wrote:
Good idea for a thread, WanderingLands.

Martial arts can be very spiritual; they are not mere activities for brutes. Your mind and body become disciplined, more refined, when you dedicate yourself seriously to a form of combat.


Full agreement.

_________________
The Seven Principles of Hermeticism (from the Kybalion):

1. All is Mind
2. As Above, So Below
3. Everything vibrates
4. Everything is in polarity
5. All things are in motion
6. For every cause, there is an effect
7. All is gender (Male & Female)
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BardoXV



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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:55 am

WanderingLands wrote:

My purpose is for discipline and keeping active, and also part of learning the spiritual metaphysic that goes into it (so technically it would be some sort of 'Enlightenment'). As far as self defense goes, I'm sure that some moves will be useful for combat against another, but that's not my first priority.

Then I would say that you are looking into it with the proper attitude. Here's another book that I would recommend,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_in_the_Art_of_Archery

Though not about Karate, the martial arts theme still applies. FYI, his wife had learned flower arranging, and in the end he realized that as for the pursuit of zen, he would have been just as well off to study flower arranging.

BTW, all the books that I recommend are ones that I have read, I have yet to recommend one on someone else's say so. There is one other book that I have read but I can't remember the title, these were all books that I read but were our old house and I no longer have copies of them. The other book is about a Canadian lumberjack who goes to Japan to learn Karate. the book is a description of his mental journey from learning a physical activity, to the understanding of the deeper meaning of the art.

Let me pass on one more tidbit that I have learned about Zen. Many years ago I read that all are enlightened, but just don't know it, so I decided that since I was already enlightened, I would skip all the hard work and just play with my grandchildren.
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mannequin
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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:07 pm

WanderingLands wrote:
BardoXV wrote:
You must first decide what is your purpose or objective in learning a martial arts,  if it is self defense, a .44 magnum revolver or a 12 Ga. double barrel might be more effective.   If you are interested in learning a Zen art, almost anything will do, what is your interest?   Zen enlightenment can be achieved through almost any activity, follow your Bliss.   As far as self defense, just because a movement is difficult or exotic looking, does not make it effective.   Often a straight punch to the gut will put an opponent on the ground and eliminate the danger.   A crow bar to the back of the head is very effective, but leads to complications.  

My purpose is for discipline and keeping active, and also part of learning the spiritual metaphysic that goes into it (so technically it would be some sort of 'Enlightenment'). As far as self defense goes, I'm sure that some moves will be useful for combat against another, but that's not my first priority.

If defence is not the first priority, why not supplement the learning of martial arts with yoga?
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BardoXV



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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:17 pm

Let me relate a little cautionary tale about Yoga books. During the years that I was reading a lot about Zen I also wanted to learn something of the philosophy of Yoga, so I went into a book store to check out that section of books. I narrowed it down to 2 books that both happened to have attractive women on the cover sitting cross legged. Looking closer I noticed that on the cover of the first book the woman was not in the lotus position and was nowhere to be seen on the inside of the book. Clearly just a model to sell copies of the book. On the second book the woman was in the Lotus position and was illustrating several of the movements in the book along with several other individuals. I put the first back on the shelf and bought the second.
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AvantGarde
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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:01 pm

mannequin wrote:

If defence is not the first priority, why not supplement the learning of martial arts with yoga?

Just using it for defense isn't simply enough to have the full extensive knowledge of martial arts. In order to get down to the core of it, you have to look at the spiritual side to it, if you want to efficiently master it.

_________________
The Seven Principles of Hermeticism (from the Kybalion):

1. All is Mind
2. As Above, So Below
3. Everything vibrates
4. Everything is in polarity
5. All things are in motion
6. For every cause, there is an effect
7. All is gender (Male & Female)
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mannequin
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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:07 pm

WanderingLands wrote:
mannequin wrote:

If defence is not the first priority, why not supplement the learning of martial arts with yoga?

Just using it for defense isn't simply enough to have the full extensive knowledge of martial arts. In order to get down to the core of it, you have to look at the spiritual side to it, if you want to efficiently master it.

Right, so why not supplement the learning of martial arts with yoga?
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AvantGarde
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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:19 pm

mannequin wrote:

Right, so why not supplement the learning of martial arts with yoga?

Well yes, that would be a good advice; as far as I know from a documentary I watched on shaolin (called "Myths and Logic of Shaolin Kung Fu"), the concepts behind it did originate from India.



_________________
The Seven Principles of Hermeticism (from the Kybalion):

1. All is Mind
2. As Above, So Below
3. Everything vibrates
4. Everything is in polarity
5. All things are in motion
6. For every cause, there is an effect
7. All is gender (Male & Female)
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BardoXV



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Join date : 2015-03-05

PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:07 pm

WanderingLands wrote:

Well yes, that would be a good advice; as far as I know from a documentary I watched on shaolin (called "Myths and Logic of Shaolin Kung Fu"), the concepts behind it did originate from India.

It is my understanding that a Buddhist master visited the Shaolin monastery and was appalled at the poor physical condition of the monks and so instituted a series of physical exercises that developed into the Kung Fu style of martial arts. I watched the video and was disappointed at the sequence of the student breaking bricks, he would slightly lift the brick so that when struck it would slam against the stone wall and the momentum of the brick itself would break it. It just seemed a bit fake to me, much like breaking boards in Karate class where they were careful which way the grain of the wood was oriented to make it easier to break. In fact breaking it along the grain took little or no effort but looked impressive. I know this from studying woodworking in college and practical experience. If you want to impress me, break the board across the grain.
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AvantGarde
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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:15 pm

BardoXV wrote:

It is my understanding that a Buddhist master visited the Shaolin monastery and was appalled at the poor physical condition of the monks and so instituted a series of physical exercises that developed into the Kung Fu style of martial arts.

Yep - that's what I was what I had in mind.

BardoXV wrote:

I watched the video and was disappointed at the sequence of the student breaking bricks, he would slightly lift the brick so that when struck it would slam against the stone wall and the momentum of the brick itself would break it.  It just seemed a bit fake to me, much like breaking boards in Karate class where they were careful which way the grain of the wood was oriented to make it easier to break.  In fact breaking it along the grain took little or no effort but looked impressive.   I know this from studying woodworking in college and practical experience. If you want to impress me, break the board across the grain.  

Interesting. Never really knew that.

_________________
The Seven Principles of Hermeticism (from the Kybalion):

1. All is Mind
2. As Above, So Below
3. Everything vibrates
4. Everything is in polarity
5. All things are in motion
6. For every cause, there is an effect
7. All is gender (Male & Female)
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Erik

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:04 pm

Mannequin wrote:
If defence is not the first priority, why not supplement the learning of martial arts with yoga?

I used to do yoga, actually. The only reason I stopped was because I tore my patellar tendon, when I tried to get in the damn lotus position!


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mannequin
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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:56 pm

Erik wrote:
Mannequin wrote:
If defence is not the first priority, why not supplement the learning of martial arts with yoga?

I used to do yoga, actually. The only reason I stopped was because I tore my patellar tendon, when I tried to get in the damn lotus position!


Yeah, no doubt, the spiritual aspect of yoga helps deal with the position pain afterwards Wink
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AvantGarde
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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:07 pm

Erik wrote:

I used to do yoga, actually. The only reason I stopped was because I tore my patellar tendon, when I tried to get in the damn lotus position!

Yeah, it's a bitch to learn those complex movements and stances. In shaolin, there are tons of stretching exercises that are just too hard so far for me to get right. Just yesterday, I pulled a muscle on my left leg after practicing too hard. But really, they're basically nuances that parts of our bodies aren't really accustomed to using.

_________________
The Seven Principles of Hermeticism (from the Kybalion):

1. All is Mind
2. As Above, So Below
3. Everything vibrates
4. Everything is in polarity
5. All things are in motion
6. For every cause, there is an effect
7. All is gender (Male & Female)
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mannequin
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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:41 pm

Yeah the body has NEVER been in some of those positions, it can actually be quite dangerous, similar to that of bodybuilding, in the sense of lifting heavy weight.

I engage in lifting and stretching fairly often. I can easily bend over forward with my legs straight and touch my toes, I have even got to the point where I can touch the floor with the palm of my hands and hold it for however long I like, with no problems.

The other day I decided to take my stretches one step further. As I was in the bent over position and hands touching the floor, i thought to myself, let's place my hands further back ( behind my legs ) and then pull my head and upper body towards my legs..

Like this..


All my shit was snapped up!

Must of pulled some shit or a mirco-tear happened in my lower back, but what ever it was it put me in bed for like three days!.. I mean, I could walk, but every time I moved, it was painful! .. very painful!

I don't know how I feel about stretching anymore..
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BardoXV



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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:06 pm

Don't go to extremes, no matter what someone tells you about how much good it will do later. When I was working out someone came to us from another school and told us about how someone "helped" him to get stretched out better, by pushing his leg up and ripping his hamstrings. If it hurts, you're doing it wrong. No pain, No gain, is BS by those who don't know any better. Stay within what nature gives you, and you'll be a lot better off.
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Erik

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:35 pm

BardoXV wrote:
Don't go to extremes, no matter what someone tells you about how much good it will do later.   When I was working out someone came to us from another school and told us about how someone "helped" him to get stretched out better, by pushing his leg up and ripping his hamstrings.  If it hurts, you're doing it wrong.  No pain, No gain, is BS by those who don't know any better.   Stay within what nature gives you, and you'll be a lot better off.  


Haha!

When it comes to streching, yeah, the whole ' no pain - no gain ' mantra isn't conducive, like it is in weightlifting.

I learned the hard way, as prior mentioned...

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:38 pm

Erik wrote:
BardoXV wrote:
 No pain, No gain, is BS by those who don't know any better.   Stay within what nature gives you, and you'll be a lot better off.  

Haha!

When it comes to streching, yeah, the whole ' no pain - no gain ' mantra isn't conducive, like it is in weightlifting.

I learned the hard way, as prior mentioned...

Here is where it is important to know what your body is trying to tell you. There are different kinds of pain and it's important to know which is which. There is the ache from a good workout. There is the pain of an injury, and that should not be ignored. During a workout one evening one of the brown belts complained that he didn't feel good. We had a doctor working out with us and he suggested a trip to the hospital. The man had, had a heart attack and it was his physical condition that kept him going. That was a kind of pain that should not be ignored. Some kinds of pain is good, others will kill you if ignored.
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mannequin
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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:24 am

Well, i guess it depends on what kind of workout you mean, but the pain from a lifting workout his hardly an ache. It's a very real pain because of the muscle fibre tears and, although it's considered a non-serious "good" pain, it can be way more painful than a serious condition that emits minimal amount of pain. Some serious injuries produce an aching pain such as neck and back injuries whereas the pain from a workout can be of a larger variety, such as a burning, or stabbing sensation, although in the last stages of muscle recovery then yeah it may resemble an ache.
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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:29 am

mannequin wrote:
Well, i guess it depends on what kind of workout you mean, but the pain from a lifting workout his hardly an ache. It's a very real pain because of the muscle fibre tears and, although it's considered a non-serious "good" pain, it can be way more painful than a serious condition that emits minimal amount of pain. Some serious injuries produce an aching pain such as neck and back injuries whereas the pain from a workout can be of a larger variety, such as a burning, or stabbing sensation, although in the last stages of muscle recovery then yeah it may resemble an ache.

Part of knowing what kind of pain you are experiencing is knowing what is causing the pain, and that will help to tell you what needs to be done about it.

I have Diverticulosis, and occasionally it develops into Diverticulitis. Usually I make a doctors appointment, get a prescription for antibiotics and it goes away. In June I had an attack and knew that just a prescription was not going to be enough, I went to the Hospital, and spent 3 days there. I knew what was causing the pain and knew what needed to be done. There are times to "tough it out" and times to get help.
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AvantGarde
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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts   Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:41 pm


_________________
The Seven Principles of Hermeticism (from the Kybalion):

1. All is Mind
2. As Above, So Below
3. Everything vibrates
4. Everything is in polarity
5. All things are in motion
6. For every cause, there is an effect
7. All is gender (Male & Female)
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